1. Entech Controls Corporation

General Finishes gets a lot of attention on here and for good reason. I've heard a lot of good things about Target Coatings and was wondering if many on here use them?

I recently got an Earlex 5500 and sprayed some test boards of GF Enduro-var and like it but also want to try some others as I experiment with waterbornes.Being a Waterlox user, it seems the EC2000 or EC8000 might give the closest results in look. I realized no waterbornes will be as dark as Waterlox but looking for a finish that gives the clarity and depth of it. Anyone have experience with EC2000 or EC8000 and what is the difference between them? I got some Target EM1000 sealer and EM2000 Alkyd varnish and have done several test boards.

I had some solvent popping at first, but thinning 5% and working on my gun settings and technique and it's spraying well now. I sprayed the bottom of a hard maple vanity and it definitely adds some amber to the wood.I am liking how fast spraying is and how many coats you can get in a day with waterbornes.I doubt you are getting solvent popping. Most likely air in the finish, from sputter.

Welcome to the world of water based. The easiest way I can explain this is to spit on the ground, see all the air bubbles?

This is what happens with water based high solids finishes. Its very easy to get air in water based finishes, just give some a shake you will see what I mean.

Two things your gun is not atomizing the finish, sort of expected with a low cfm turbine. Second is the cup. Every time you move the gun with your cup low on finish it creates bubbles in the cup. You bottom feeder is not a true siphon gun its a pressure cup.As you found thinning helps because your gun cant atomize the finish without introducing air.

Heating the finish works even better. Second changing over to a PPS cup will cure the foaming in in the cup. All air in the finish is removed prior to spraying. Lastly make sure your gun is clean this is more important on low end guns. Dont assume that running water through it because your using WB is getting it clean. Use mineral spirits or gun cleaner. Famous conversation over at Target,:rolleyes: the dreaded micro bubbles.

They usually flow right off the gun. Target always recommends thin light coats. Do not pile on their product like a solvent lacquer.It happens with thick coats as the surface skins over usually from hot weather or can be really dry air conditions in your shop, or just to much air movement over the surface. It traps in bubbles and cant gas off through the surface. True solvent pop appears later after spraying typically found on the top surface areas where we tend to spray a little thicker.So if your getting micro bubbles, don’t thin the product. It's best to add the manufactures 'retarder' to slow the drying and turn down the air pressure since 'over atomization' can cause micro bubbles as well.As to cleaning the gun, for water-based, it's best to use good old 'hot' water. Then a quick flush with denatured alcohol.

Try some lacquer thinner for water-based that has set up some on gun parts.Air bubbles never seems to be a problem with the 'quality' finishes that are available on the market.:)-Ace. Famous conversation over at Target,:rolleyes: the dreaded micro bubbles. They usually flow right off the gun. Target always recommends thin light coats.

Do not pile on their product like a solvent lacquer.It happens with thick coats as the surface skins over usually from hot weather or can be really dry air conditions in your shop, or just to much air movement over the surface. It traps in bubbles and cant gas off through the surface.

True solvent pop appears later after spraying typically found on the top surface areas where we tend to spray a little thicker.So if your getting micro bubbles, don’t thin the product. It's best to add the manufactures 'retarder' to slow the drying and turn down the air pressure since 'over atomization' can cause micro bubbles as well.As to cleaning the gun, for water-based, it's best to use good old 'hot' water. Then a quick flush with denatured alcohol. Try some lacquer thinner for water-based that has set up some on gun parts.Air bubbles never seems to be a problem with the 'quality' finishes that are available on the market.:)-Ace-The problem is the Earlex. He can't turn down or up the air. The Earlex won't fully atomize em2000, target suggest 5% distiller water for thinning. His gun is not stainless like an iwatta.

The aluminum passages build while spraying, water will not remove. Alkydes lack surfactants used in acrylic thus require air elimination and fine atomization. Major gripe with many coating including sherwin Williams and ml Campbell. The problem is the Earlex.

He can't turn down or up the air. The Earlex won't fully atomize em2000, target suggest 5% distiller water for thinning. His gun is not stainless like an iwatta. The aluminum passages build while spraying, water will not remove. Alkydes lack surfactants used in acrylic thus require air elimination and fine atomization. Major gripe with many coating including sherwin Williams and ml Campbell.Here is a link on the retarder from Targets website. It's suggested to use for turbine spraying, I would use this instead of 5% distilled water and is recomended to help with micro bubbles.

As to cleaning, hot water has always worked for me, even on cheap spray guns containing aluminum-Ace. It would help if the turbine heat was the problem. My guess based on the fact that he thinned 5% and it cured the issue.

He is using a fat 1.5 or larger needle. Making it only an atomization issue / sputter along with the fact that the Earlex puts out very little heat. This finish needs a fine.8 needle and cap with 4 stage turbine or f series tips in a kremlin aaa to be perfect.

It can be sprayed full thickness just like solvent.The work around for low cfm turbines is minimizing air contamination and thinning by 5% using the finest needle and cap you have that will still spray a full wet coat. Or heating and using a fine finish needle and cap. I think you guys like arguing on my finishing threads It's all good as I love your feedback.I'm new to waterbornes and spray finishing and have tried both GF Enduro-var and Target EM2000 on tests boards. I had problems with each at first, but in the end, putting tests boards of each next to each other and you can't tell a difference.

Giving both products a week to cure, a light rubbing with a paper sack produced glass smooth surfaces with each. The reason I'm using a bunch of test boards is because I knew there would be a learning curve.I had initial problems with each but think it was more about technique and adjusting the atomization. I did end up thinning the EM2000 5% and maybe that's because it has 10% more solids than the Enduro-var. Just like a phenolic varnish and poly varnish don't apply the same, I realize not all waterbornes will apply the same. I'm always up for a challenge and to expand my skills and I'm finding that waterbornes are more picky than my Waterlox.

Practice and research will get me there.So Ace, who do you consider good waterborne manufacturers other than GF? Obviously you aren't fond of Target, but realize, that people post on support forums looking for help. Any product's support forums are going to be heavy on people looking for help.Anyway, it's too early for me to determine if I like GF Enduro-var or Target Coatings EM2000 better. They both add some amber to the finish which I like being a long-time Waterlox user. GF was initially easier to spray for a rookie but I got good results with both.

EM2000 was under $60 a gallon and free shipping with promo where GF Enduro-var is $88 plus shipping. Maybe the 10% more solids is a plus towards the EM2000? Maybe that is what makes it slightly harder to spray with an entry-level HVLP? I think you guys like arguing on my finishing threads It's all good as I love your feedback.I'm new to waterbornes and spray finishing and have tried both GF Enduro-var and Target EM2000 on tests boards. I had problems with each at first, but in the end, putting tests boards of each next to each other and you can't tell a difference.

Giving both products a week to cure, a light rubbing with a paper sack produced glass smooth surfaces with each. The reason I'm using a bunch of test boards is because I knew there would be a learning curve.I had initial problems with each but think it was more about technique and adjusting the atomization. I did end up thinning the EM2000 5% and maybe that's because it has 10% more solids than the Enduro-var.

Just like a phenolic varnish and poly varnish don't apply the same, I realize not all waterbornes will apply the same. I'm always up for a challenge and to expand my skills and I'm finding that waterbornes are more picky than my Waterlox. Practice and research will get me there.So Ace, who do you consider good waterborne manufacturers other than GF? Obviously you aren't fond of Target, but realize, that people post on support forums looking for help. Any product's support forums are going to be heavy on people looking for help.Anyway, it's too early for me to determine if I like GF Enduro-var or Target Coatings EM2000 better. They both add some amber to the finish which I like being a long-time Waterlox user. GF was initially easier to spray for a rookie but I got good results with both.

EM2000 was under $60 a gallon and free shipping with promo where GF Enduro-var is $88 plus shipping. Maybe the 10% more solids is a plus towards the EM2000? Maybe that is what makes it slightly harder to spray with an entry-level HVLP?All I can say as to the arguing is Particle Board seems to climb up my exhaust pipe after a majority of any of my post. But he does that with other folks on this forum, as well.Ok, General Finishes Enduro-Var is a new(er) product formula in the lineup, I will be the first to sayI m not fond of the Enduro-Var for every day hobby projects that desire amber coloring, for bar-tops and floor finishes, its awesome (in my opinion).

If you want amber, tint a standard topcoat.In finishing, you must match the purpose of the finish to the project, and price certainly reflects that. You ask witch products are better than others. That is a personal choice and you need to figure that out. Which beer tastes better than others? Which chisel is better that others? It’s all over the map.

I’m not a Target fan and I don’t like Miller beer!Remember, your EM2000 is formulated for the production world and made a certain way to be run through commercial equipment, as you found out, your 5500 is a entry level sprayer.I was following your spray issues over at the Target forum. Target doesn’t have a retail/hobby side like General Finishes. For hobby folks the hobby products are made more hobbies friendlier, does that make sense? Target seems to have a bunch of hobby guys that buy products only when it comes on sale, try to use professional stuff on hobby. Have all kinds of issues, and that is what that forum is about. Target won’t sell quarts either, General Finishes will. Are you going to use that gallon up before it goes bad, so that is wasted money?I just think if Target wants to enter the hobby world, sell quart size cans and lets folks try some and learn the different products.

Instead, it's here is a gallon of our production finish and good luck making it work, if you have any issues, please spend hours on our forum, then wait for a few more months for another gallon to come up with free shipping.Keep on spraying, every day it gets better as you learn.-Ace. I dont mean to climb up your exhaust pipe. Really just setting the record straight. Im not saying your wrong but dont really understand some of your comments. Not to be a brand loyal fanboy but in this last post you state that Target forces you buy gallons wasting money when in fact Target does sell quarts and has for as long as I can remember. They call theirs 32 oz.You mention air adjustment when the op uses a Earlex with no adjustments. No fan width nor cap pressure or air flow.

The earlex is more like an windex bottle than a spray gun. You get what you get. The fluid control only controls the volume so there is no way to bring the droplets closer together. So in other words you have to select the proper needle and thin the viscosity to get a good balance. The cup pressure cant be controlled in any way, its like running a pressure pot with no regulator.

These systems are not like your expensive Iwata or my expensive turbine.The earlex is also a solid aluminum gun and a very poorly machined gun at that. These guns need greater care than our expensive guns. WB finishes corrode these guns just like water corrodes any aluminum.

Entech Controls Corporation

As the gun is used the fluid passages develop pits that hold finish and the finish builds over time and use. It cant be washed out with water. This is the reason your expensive Iwatta has stainless lined fluid passages. Earlex guns should be cleaned with a solvent or they build up over time.You mention using sa5 and not using water.

This is pretty sound advice if it was a conventional turbine system for a large project. The earlex puts out very little heat thus why they can get away with a solid metal gun and a thin plastic vacuum hose. Their gun connected to a 4 stage turbine system would get to hot to hold in short order, the reason plastic handles are used on turbine systems with true hvlp turbine guns. Even with a conventional 4 stage system just spraying a couple test boards would not create enough heat to merit the use of sa5.Again not to be a brand loyal fanboy. I do agree that Target finishes require a little more knowledge of the product and the equipment being used. Even with the earlex there are workarounds that do help. Im not going to say its a bad finish because those with limited experience have a hard time.

I most certainly not going to tell a guy your spray system is crap and you need to go back to beginner level finishes until you learn how to use the good stuff. Target has proven itself and has let the industy put it to the test.

I see no reason for those wanting a proven finish not to have it if they are willing to learn. It doesnt matter if its Target, Sherwin Williams or Ml Campbell all of them have exactly the same air issue if you can call it an issue.I know you like GF and its great for beginners that I will admit, the performance sprays perfectly even with the worst of equipment. I have no problem using GF products on things I dont have to warranty. There are plenty of cabinet professionals that have submitted their products finished with Target products to KCMA. I cant say that Ive ever heard of any company that has submitted any GF finished product. Thats not to say that there are none, Id welcome the chance to speak to a professional that has.In this last post you state that EM2K is formulated for the production world and is formulated In a way to run through commercial equipment.

The difference purely efficiency and nothing more, get more solids down faster. This does not take away from the guy holding the gun needing to understand the finish and the equipment. Its high solids formula is what makes it appealing to production shop the commercial stops right there. The reality is it was designed to be sprayed or brushed, beginners may find that brushing and using a pad is a better option for them.Specially formulated for industrial spray applications, EM2000wvx can also be brush or padapplied for ease of use versatility.Targets biggest down fall is helping people by providing a forum for assistance. You get alot of people wanting the best finish they can afford expecting perfect results with no knowledge of the product or even the equipment they are using. They expect that since they can spray GF or something along those lines that the Target is going to be the same. Its easy to blame the finish.

Like anything else it takes practice and learning, you dont just pull the trigger like you would with something GF performance, hell I think you could spray that stuff with a old used windex bottle and be just fine.As far as I know Im the only user here that uses alot of target finishes but I also use alot of minwax and GF. Im certainly no expert on just one finish but I can with out a doubt say they make a good product and stand behind their products. I dont mean to climb up your exhaust pipe. Really just setting the record straight. Im not saying your wrong but dont really understand some of your comments.

Not to be a brand loyal fanboy but in this last post you state that Target forces you buy gallons wasting money when in fact Target does sell quarts and has for as long as I can remember. They call theirs 32 oz.You mention air adjustment when the op uses a Earlex with no adjustments. No fan width nor cap pressure or air flow. The earlex is more like an windex bottle than a spray gun. You get what you get.

The fluid control only controls the volume so there is no way to bring the droplets closer together. So in other words you have to select the proper needle and thin the viscosity to get a good balance. The cup pressure cant be controlled in any way, its like running a pressure pot with no regulator. These systems are not like your expensive Iwata or my expensive turbine.The earlex is also a solid aluminum gun and a very poorly machined gun at that.

These guns need greater care than our expensive guns. WB finishes corrode these guns just like water corrodes any aluminum.

As the gun is used the fluid passages develop pits that hold finish and the finish builds over time and use. It cant be washed out with water. This is the reason your expensive Iwatta has stainless lined fluid passages. Earlex guns should be cleaned with a solvent or they build up over time.You mention using sa5 and not using water.

This is pretty sound advice if it was a conventional turbine system for a large project. The earlex puts out very little heat thus why they can get away with a solid metal gun and a thin plastic vacuum hose. Their gun connected to a 4 stage turbine system would get to hot to hold in short order, the reason plastic handles are used on turbine systems with true hvlp turbine guns. Even with a conventional 4 stage system just spraying a couple test boards would not create enough heat to merit the use of sa5.Again not to be a brand loyal fanboy.

I do agree that Target finishes require a little more knowledge of the product and the equipment being used. Even with the earlex there are workarounds that do help.

Im not going to say its a bad finish because those with limited experience have a hard time. I most certainly not going to tell a guy your spray system is crap and you need to go back to beginner level finishes until you learn how to use the good stuff. Target has proven itself and has let the industy put it to the test. I see no reason for those wanting a proven finish not to have it if they are willing to learn. It doesnt matter if its Target, Sherwin Williams or Ml Campbell all of them have exactly the same air issue if you can call it an issue.I know you like GF and its great for beginners that I will admit, the performance sprays perfectly even with the worst of equipment. I have no problem using GF products on things I dont have to warranty.

There are plenty of cabinet professionals that have submitted their products finished with Target products to KCMA. I cant say that Ive ever heard of any company that has submitted any GF finished product. Thats not to say that there are none, Id welcome the chance to speak to a professional that has.In this last post you state that EM2K is formulated for the production world and is formulated In a way to run through commercial equipment. The difference purely efficiency and nothing more, get more solids down faster.

This does not take away from the guy holding the gun needing to understand the finish and the equipment. Its high solids formula is what makes it appealing to production shop the commercial stops right there. The reality is it was designed to be sprayed or brushed, beginners may find that brushing and using a pad is a better option for them.Specially formulated for industrial spray applications, EM2000wvx can also be brush or padapplied for ease of use versatility.Targets biggest down fall is helping people by providing a forum for assistance. You get alot of people wanting the best finish they can afford expecting perfect results with no knowledge of the product or even the equipment they are using. They expect that since they can spray GF or something along those lines that the Target is going to be the same. Its easy to blame the finish.

Like anything else it takes practice and learning, you dont just pull the trigger like you would with something GF performance, hell I think you could spray that stuff with a old used windex bottle and be just fine.As far as I know Im the only user here that uses alot of target finishes but I also use alot of minwax and GF. Im certainly no expert on just one finish but I can with out a doubt say they make a good product and stand behind their products.See what I mean.in my exhaust pipe.Ok.your right Im wrong.you win.feel better?-Ace. I dont mean to climb up your exhaust pipe.Really just setting the record straight. Im not saying your wrong butdont really understand some of your comments.

Not to be a brand loyalfanboy but in this last post you state that Target forces you buygallons wasting money when in fact Target does sell quarts and has foras long as I can remember. They call theirs 32 oz. As long as I can remember they never sold 32's in topcoats.That is what most guys buy. I see they do now.You mention air adjustment when the op uses a Earlex with noadjustments. No fan width nor cap pressure or air flow. The earlex ismore like an windex bottle than a spray gun. You get what you get.

Thefluid control only controls the volume so there is no way to bring thedroplets closer together. So in other words you have to select theproper needle and thin the viscosity to get a good balance.

The cuppressure cant be controlled in any way, its like running a pressure potwith no regulator. These systems are not like your expensive Iwata or myexpensive turbine.

The poster already had discussions with Jeff at Target fixing his problems. Merly explaining to those who are less informed how you get micro bubbles. Not everybody sprays with Earlex 5500.The earlex is also a solid aluminum gun and a very poorly machinedgun at that.

These guns need greater care than our expensive guns. WBfinishes corrode these guns just like water corrodes any aluminum. Asthe gun is used the fluid passages develop pits that hold finish and thefinish builds over time and use. It cant be washed out with water. Thisis the reason your expensive Iwatta has stainless lined fluid passages.Earlex guns should be cleaned with a solvent or they build up overtime.

If you clean your gun after spraying there should be no build up of finish or pitting period. They have kits for cleaning spray guns, use one.You mention using sa5 and not using water. This is pretty soundadvice if it was a conventional turbine system for a large project. Theearlex puts out very little heat thus why they can get away with a solidmetal gun and a thin plastic vacuum hose.

Their gun connected to a 4stage turbine system would get to hot to hold in short order, the reasonplastic handles are used on turbine systems with true hvlp turbineguns. Even with a conventional 4 stage system just spraying a coupletest boards would not create enough heat to merit the use of sa5. The sa5 is a retarder. It slows the dry of the finish alowing the finish to gas off.

Why do we need to do that? Because the finish has skim over for the reasons stated.

Target suggest using it with Turbines!!! I dont see an exclusion for the Earlex 5500, thinning with water can be problematic, some folks dont understand what 5% to 10% is.I know you like GF and its great for beginners that I will admit, theperformance sprays perfectly even with the worst of equipment. I haveno problem using GF products on things I dont have to warranty. Thereare plenty of cabinet professionals that have submitted their productsfinished with Target products to KCMA. I cant say that Ive ever heard ofany company that has submitted any GF finished product.

Thats not tosay that there are none, Id welcome the chance to speak to aprofessional that has. General Finises stand by their products just as all the other finish manufactures. Why do you think they dont?In this last post you state that EM2K is formulated for theproduction world and is formulated In a way to run through commercialequipment. The difference purely efficiency and nothing more, get moresolids down faster.

This does not take away from the guy holding thegun needing to understand the finish and the equipment. Its high solidsformula is what makes it appealing to production shop the commercialstops right there. The reality is it was designed to be sprayed orbrushed, beginners may find that brushing and using a pad is a betteroption for them.

EM2000 is a production finish and made to dry fast. So if used by novice finishers can cause issues, as is the case here, micro bubbles.

If decided to brush or pad it must be thinned so less solids. Defeats the purpose, this is a solids driven finish, not something to give you amber color, there is a reason for the solids just as you suggested.-Ace. If you clean your gun you can minimize pitting but not eliminate. Chem stripping still takes place. Aluminum is a consumable, everywhere, every time. Dog pee pits it, skin oils pit it, copper strips it, etc.

It is cheap (relative to really expensive stuff) easy to mill and easy to replace. That is why we use it. Generally speaking stainless is non perishable.Hey never though of dog pee:lol: That has amonia in it. Probably be a good thinner for water-base. And give you that amber color.

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